First Segment

Sandy Dhuyvetter: You know we’ve been talking a lot about cruise victims. The International Cruise Victims Association has been on our program a couple of times, 2 times actually. We also had a cruise line or a cruise victims’ attorney on talking a little about the situation. And it’s very interesting, too, because we’ve actually invited the International Cruise Line Association - Council (ICCL) and then we have CLIA which is the Cruise Line International Association, we’ve invited them on, and they’ve been on our show many times. But it’s not...I don’t believe it’s something that they really want to talk about. We have not gotten much support on that. But, we did get a call from a gentleman. He is the Editor of Cruise Mates, CruiseMates.com, His name is Paul Motter and he wanted to talk to us. He wanted to set his record straight on what he believes should be happening, and what he believes to be the truth of this whole ordeal. Now, if you have been following along, you will know that Senator John Kerry has introduced a bill into the senate for cruise safety. We also have Doris Matsui from California, Sacramento legislator, who has also introduced legislation into the House of Representatives in DC. Paul, I want to thank you for joining us today.

Paul Motter: Well, thank you for inviting me, Sandy,

Sandy: You bet. Listen, we have been listening to a lot of stories. I’ve had a lot of cruise victims really come to me, and thank me, and also share with me their stories. Do you think we have a problem here?

Motter: Well, the question is not whether or not there is a problem. The question is how severe is the problem.  When we talk about a problem with crime on cruise ships, I just really think that that problem is being vastly overblown by Ken Carver, and a few other people who call themselves cruise victims. I even find that name a little bit odd.

Sandy: Yeah, let’s start with that, because I noticed in your email you put cruise victims in quotes. What do you think a cruise victim… tell me what your thought is on that.

Motter: Well , the way I see it is Ken Carver has started an organization called International Cruise Victims, as if everybody who joins, and by the way there is no criteria at all for who joins this organization, is somehow  a victim of the cruise industry, whether or not anything that happened to them. And it’s purely by their own word, you know, their own story, unsubstantiated in most cases, whether it happened to them by another passenger, or even on land during a shore excursion, or even unsupervised activities in ports of call. Almost anyone can join International Cruise Victims.

Sandy: Well, let’s get back to the, I mean, does that mean that there is no Cruise Victims?

Motter: No, of course not. There are, there have been a few cruise victims. There have been a few people who have been the victims of crimes on cruise ships, but the number of people as a percentage of any other any other kind of travel vacation or even just general living, going to school going, or to your job every day, your actually safer on a cruise ship then you are land.

Sandy: How do you know that?  I mean, from what I understand, there’s no legal reason for a cruise ship to offer the logs of crime, and in fact, there are no logs of crime.

Motter:  What you’re getting into is a very complicated topic, and I’d love to discuss it with you, but you just have to understand that this is not a simple “feelings” type of topic. Of course everyone feels bad for cruise victims.

Sandy: No, no, no, no, I just really… I feel bad about…if one crime has happened, it’s one too many. But, getting back to the point is, the cruise lines have no legal ramification to be bringing about a log of crime. So, we don’t even really know.

Motter:  I’m sorry but that’s exactly the point I was getting to if you haven’t interrupted me. There is no such thing as an international law force, and any ship on the high seas is not subject to the laws of any one nation. However, there are bodies of law called Admiralty Courts, of which there are representatives in every nation, and the rule, and the fact is, in the United States there is a law that says any United States citizen that is the victim of a crime on the high seas, can redress that with the Federal Bureau of Investigation, and can have his case heard in an admiralty court of law in any major city in the United States.

Sandy: Let me ask you something. You’ve seen this legislation. I’ve read this legislation. To me it looks like common sense. Why shouldn’t we protect even one or two people that have lost their lives? I know the airline or resort would certainly have to do that. Why should the cruise lines be exempt from that?

Motter: Well, first of all they are not exempt. Cruise lines are just as subject to the rule of law as anybody else. It’s a matter of jurisdiction. And Ken Carver seems to have this vastly confused in his mind. I do believe that if he has an argument with anyone, it would be with the United States government and the FBI for them failing to follow up on some of these cruise crimes. But that’s not my main argument with Ken Carver. My main argument is that he acts as if a cruise ship is a hostile environment and a person is in danger being on a cruise ship, and that is just absolutely not true.

Sandy: Okay, we’re going to take a quick break, and we’re going to get back on point and that is this legislation that is actually being heard in the Senate and the House, and were going to go back to the points and talk to Paul, and see if there’s a way that we can all agree that maybe this is a good idea, and I’ll talk a little bit about what we’ve done in the Department of Homeland Security. My name is Sandy Dhuyvetter, and we’ll be right back.

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Second Segment

Sandy: Alright welcome back to Travel Talk Radio. We’re having a very interesting discussion with Paul Motter. He is the Editor of CruiseMates.com. You can go on and go over there and take a look at what they do. We started the conversation talking a little bit about; you’re a writer, correct Paul?

Motter: That’s correct.

Sandy: How long have you been a writer?

Motter: 10 years now for the cruise industry.

Sandy: And the cruise industry actually supports CruiseMates.com, right, correct?

Motter: Well you can say that. We are advertising supported.

Sandy: Okay, and the cruise lines are supporting you. So, okay, I just want to get that level of ground here.

Motter: Well, no. We are advertising supported and cruise lines are our advertisers, but we do not have an editorial policy where they dictate what we write.

Sandy: Okay beautiful. Let’s get back in to the legislation that’s really the heart of what we’re talking about. I think it’s really important for people to understand that if they want, especially if they want their congressman or their senator to vote for this, they have to understand it. And I know you mentioned that it’s many layers. But, lets get to a couple of things and before we do that, I want to make a mention here and I want your opinion on this. If we lose one person to crime, is it worth our while to go back in, and to look at the situation, and to re-adjust it if it’s necessary?

Motter: I honestly don’t think so. Because, when we are talking about the cruise industry where twelve million people cruise every year and the vast majority have the vacation of their lifetime, if there is one fatality, then that is a tragedy, obviously. But one fatality compared to car vacations or so many other vacations where thousands of people die every year, we are not talking about a serious problem that merits the attention of our Congress.

Sandy: Alright, and I do want to preface, we do not know how many people are victims of cruise ships. We do not know, and that is part of this legislation, and let’s go over that first. Let’s go over with this transparency aspect of the legislation. Tell me, what is the rebuttal on that?

Motter: Well. the fact is we do have a very good idea of how many victims of crime there are on cruise ships.

Sandy: Why isn’t that reported?

Motter: Well, it is reported. The cruise lines keep records of everything. The fact is, if a United States Citizen makes a report on a cruise ship, cruise lines have agreed, they are not required, but they have agreed and they have followed through with a commitment to the FBI, to immediately report every crime that is reported to them to the FBI immediately, and that is being done.

Sandy: Okay, I think the key is the fact that you said they are not required. So this legislation will require them. We are required on resorts; we are required on airlines to report crime. Why wouldn’t, If they come to the US soil, why wouldn’t they be required to report this?

Motter: They are reporting the crimes, Sandy. It’s not a matter of requirement. Ken Carver wants to take the reports that come from the cruise lines, and make the reports public. Now, if someone made a report, a complaint about you on a cruise line, and it turned out being unfounded, would you want that record being made public?

Sandy: I’m not sure I follow that, but I will say that…

Motter: These are non-adjudicated cases that he wants to make public.

Sandy: Well, if you got a crime on a cruise ship, I mean, a crime is a crime. If it’s reported, we know about it. People…

Motter: Well, I beg your pardon. I have to disagree with that statement. Every crime that is reported is not a crime; we are innocent until proven guilty.

Sandy: Alright, okay, well that’s fair enough. I was referring to crimes. But that comes to another point.

Motter: It does. It comes to Ken Carver’s contention that there is a vast cover up of crime on cruise ships and I seriously disagree with that.

Sandy: Alright. And then, let’s get in to the idea of why not put on a certified security specialists, a certified security specialist, that could work with the FBI, that could work with the cruise ships, that could work with everyone to make sure that things are done on a timely manner, and the process is done in a way that is acceptable to everyone. Is that something that…Is there a rebuttal on that?

Motter: The cruise lines do have security officers on board who are hired and qualified to act as security officers and to follow up on reported crimes. If you want a law official on ships, then you have to tell me where that law official is going to come from. If you can find someone who is something like an international police force on a ship which goes to different countries every day, and has to deal with the jurisdiction of hundreds of different nations, and the FBI, if you can find someone who can work on a cruise ship and not butt heads with other qualified law enforcement agencies, then the cruise lines will be happy to put them on their ships. It’s a question of logistics.